Have you ever found yourself stuck in a cycle that seemed impossible to break? Our beloved producer Crystal, special co-host Jonathan Niziol, and I, Micah Bravery, delve into the heart of addiction and the many forms it takes, stripping away the common narrative to reveal the underlying complexities. From the sugar in your morning coffee to the adrenaline rush after a workout, we take you through a journey that questions where the boundary lies between a comforting routine and a potential obsession.
Confronting addiction is akin to facing a personal storm, demanding courage and fostering an environment of empathy and understanding. We share our collective wisdom on the deceptive nature of addiction, recognizing the signs, and the importance of societal pressures that often go unnoticed. The conversation extends to acknowledging the guilt associated with self-care, especially when the world around us seems to be in constant turmoil. Crystal, Jonathan, and I stress the importance of self-compassion and the power it holds in the healing process.
In our final chapter, the discussion turns towards the ripple effects of addiction—how it touches not just one life, but the lives of those around us, sometimes in the most unexpected of ways. We offer personal stories of recovery, emphasize the importance of communication and understanding in our everyday encounters, and close on a note of embracing imperfection. Our aim is to leave you with a sense of hope and the realization that personal growth, no matter how challenging, is a path worth treading.
https://www.jonathanniziolofficial.com/
Have you ever found yourself stuck in a cycle that seemed impossible to break? Our beloved producer Crystal, special co-host Jonathan Niziol, and I, Micah Bravery, delve into the heart of addiction and the many forms it takes, stripping away the common narrative to reveal the underlying complexities. From the sugar in your morning coffee to the adrenaline rush after a workout, we take you through a journey that questions where the boundary lies between a comforting routine and a potential obsession.
Confronting addiction is akin to facing a personal storm, demanding courage and fostering an environment of empathy and understanding. We share our collective wisdom on the deceptive nature of addiction, recognizing the signs, and the importance of societal pressures that often go unnoticed. The conversation extends to acknowledging the guilt associated with self-care, especially when the world around us seems to be in constant turmoil. Crystal, Jonathan, and I stress the importance of self-compassion and the power it holds in the healing process.
In our final chapter, the discussion turns towards the ripple effects of addiction—how it touches not just one life, but the lives of those around us, sometimes in the most unexpected of ways. We offer personal stories of recovery, emphasize the importance of communication and understanding in our everyday encounters, and close on a note of embracing imperfection. Our aim is to leave you with a sense of hope and the realization that personal growth, no matter how challenging, is a path worth treading.
https://www.jonathanniziolofficial.com/
Hello there, brave souls, Welcome to Trauma is Expensive, with your host, Micah Bravery. Here we don't just talk about trauma, we count the cost and we make the change. With every episode, we dive deep into the heart of trauma, its implications and the resilient transformations it can ignite, Through conversations, insights, real stories and unflinching honesty. This podcast is here to empower every survivor to turn their pain into progress. So let's take a journey together as we understand, confront and finally heal. Welcome to wwwtraumaisexpensivecom, your platform for change. Now let's get started.
Speaker 2:What is up? My fellow Earth dwellers, this is Micah. I am here with producer Crystal and our special co-host today, Jonathan Nizel. We're actually going to have a conversation about addiction. Before we get too far into it. Jonathan was featured in an episode of these fucking feelings podcast. We'll put that link so you guys can check out that episode. We're still going to get him to introduce himself a little bit and then we'll go from there. So take it away, Jonathan.
Speaker 3:Hey everybody. So first let me start by saying that I've lost my voice. I don't usually sound like this and you'll hear that on the last podcast, but yeah, I'm in the process to get my voice back. I had a great time recording with them last time. I'm really glad to be back and get the opportunity to help co-host and talk about something that is very personal and I have a lot of experience with his topic. So I'm very blessed and I appreciate the opportunity to come on here and get more in depth and just kind of have a nice conversation and see my favorite Blonde Bomb Shell producer.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, any excuse for that. But yeah, I'm really glad to be here.
Speaker 2:Good to see you, micah, and looking forward to it and no Blonde Bomb Shell for me to ask. Okay Brown, all right, all right, but you really did lose your voice. You over there sounded like you been smoking for the last 86 days.
Speaker 3:Seriously, just three packs a day just to hack it away. Right, maybe you're late to start, but I don't know. It's just, it's the weirdest thing I feel. Fine, I'm, it would just, I don't know, it'll come back. When it comes back, I've just been told to be patient, right?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, it probably doesn't help that you keep using your voice either.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm doing all these podcasts, but you know I'm a trooper, just kind of power through.
Speaker 2:So Right, definitely, definitely. So we wanted to talk about addiction today, and part of the reason I wanted to talk about it is because when people hear the word addiction, you know they think of drugs and alcohol or sex, but it's like addiction could be a lot of things and it could be a lot of small things, like for rollups.
Speaker 3:Yes, micah has a through up addiction. Yeah, I do have a. It's good to turn into an intervention very easily. We'll stay on course.
Speaker 2:It really, really needs to. You know what? My tooth started hurting the other day and I was like I don't know, for rollups might be time to give you up and brushing my teeth too much.
Speaker 3:No, you're absolutely right. I mean that's the thing like people think about addiction and they think about, like the big things they think about, like you said, alcohol, drugs, illicit drugs, like you said, sex but there are so many things that we can become dependent on and there's different definitions of the addictions and I think that's an important thing too, like I find for myself, I have a very addictive personality. I have a genetic predisposition to addiction and I find that if I'm obsessing over something or doing something that's starting to negatively affect my quality of life or just me in general, that's my addictive personality. That's for me, it's viewed as an addiction. And it could be excessive fitness, it could be eating, it could be all kinds of things and especially the fitness aspect.
Speaker 3:Because, being somebody who takes, I love taking care of my body, I love learning with the body, sharing my passion for that. But you can take it too far where your body is saying enough is enough. But you have that mentality, I'm doing something good quote unquote it's good for you. But anything taking to that level and I've had friends who've had sugar addictions I mean I know we joke about your fruit rollup and it's not really a joke I mean we're here to help.
Speaker 2:It's the truth. You're facing it out.
Speaker 3:I mean legitimate sugar addictions, and it's a hard one because you have to consume food. You don't have to consume alcohol or drugs or things like that. You have to consume food and there are sugar and different types of sugars and all kinds of things that we don't even know.
Speaker 2:So that's because where the slope becomes very slippery and you're right, there's a lot of addictions, and I think I'm not a mental health professional by any means, but there's the OCD side of it as well, where you see, it took that right out of my mouth because I was about to say, when you were talking about addictive personalities and you were describing things I was thinking about, wow, that kind of sounds a little bit like OCD, like you know. It's like is there a tie between them? We're also not mental health professionals for just advocates. But we're seeking truth, we're truth seekers, so, but that was a good point. I was like you took that right out of my mind. I was like OCD because you know, I think, yeah, I can just be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's excuse me, I think it's. It's a term that's used very loosely and very irresponsibly, where people are like, oh, I'm OCD, but it's a very serious affliction that people deal with, that it ruins or affects or, you know, negatively and massively affects people's lives and it's a, it's a mental condition. Definitely. I live clean and orderly and that's fine, but I, you know, I think it's people need to be careful there, because people are really struggling with and and they have the routines and they can't, you know, live and function in normal life without going through these things. And yeah, I think it's all, it's all interconnected and, like we said before, it's understanding that addiction has a lot of different definitions and a lot of different faces. It's, it's very different for a lot of people. You know, it's extremely, I think it's. I don't think you'd find two addicts that are exactly the same. I mean, I just don't know. We all use different, we choose different substances, we have different patterns and all that kind of stuff. It's, it's a. Yeah, it's very unique, very individual topic.
Speaker 2:Right. I always try to sit back and think like what would my addiction be, you know, other than frurolups? Because I feel like you know in, in. In a way, we all kind of have one.
Speaker 4:I would say that I think every single person has an addiction to something I think mine is.
Speaker 2:I like to be alone and that might be a bad addiction, but I do not like being around people like it's cool. I could do a full podcast, but I know like an hour this is going to end and they get to go home and be alone.
Speaker 4:He disappeared for a whole weekend. Oh yeah, and I thought I was going to die. I'm like where is Mike? I was going to send FBI out looking for him and everything.
Speaker 2:Jon, I think you ever had that time where you just needed to reset. Oh, of course, you just needed a reset in life and mine, my reset was to unplug. So I finally put the cell phones down and the tablets down and I and I kind of just had a weekend where it was just me and trying to figure out and filter through some heavy emotions I was dealing with, because this year has been kind of crazy for me personally and my family starting off. But yeah, I feel like that might be a negative thing because I rather spend time alone than with people.
Speaker 3:Right, I think resets are really important. I think a purposeful reset, like you were doing, is a very important thing I used to do when I was using. I would have these resets but it would because I'd be going on you know drug binges or you know addiction binges, where I would just shut everything off because I'd be in my addiction and I'd go, you know I'd be up for three or four days on Adderall and smoking weed and doing Whippets and you know, taking back pills and just shut the whole world out. And then I was resetting because I had to come out of my, my binge and come out of like, come back to reality and coming out not with a clearer head like what you're doing, like consciously, you know, let's put social media away, let's put the phone off, Like I think that's a very healthy thing to do, especially in today's world, to unplug and kind of just take some, take some quiet time. And but yeah, I was doing the opposite, kind of.
Speaker 3:It was a very negative reset and I was I talked to this before but I was. I wasn't resetting from zero. I was setting myself back a little bit every time because I had to. You know, I had to get the drugs out of my system. I had to get you know. Now I've missed five days at the gym and I haven't been eating properly, and now you know I had to do that reset. But yeah, I think I think you're right. I think everybody has a propensity to to lean towards something or lean on something. In those times of ooh, like I kind of feel like you know it's, it's been a hard day or you know, like this makes me feel a certain way. Yeah, I think it's when it just flips over to the negative side. But I think, crystal, you're absolutely right. I think everybody definitely has something that we're all dealing with.
Speaker 4:Now do you think that there is a functional addicts and non-functional addicts?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. I've thought that I was a functional addict. Looking back, definitely not, because when talking about the cost of addiction for me personally, everything around me, my finances, my relationships, my friendships, my family, my ability to be somebody who can be counted on, all that was crumbling around me and I thought I'm putting on a good face and I'm good. But I don't know that there can be, because I think the word addiction really means that hyper-focused ultimate, it takes precedent over everything. And I could manage waking up, going to train my clients, going to the gym, going to a shoot, all that kind of stuff. And as soon as all that was over, it was get my drug of choice or get my addiction, and that was it. Like hobbies didn't have them. Relationships came and went just as whatever, as depending on what kind of person they need around. But I think it's a tough thing to be a functioning addict. What do you guys think? Do you think that's a possibility or do you think that's something that is all-encompassing?
Speaker 4:I mean, I've known somebody that got up to work every single day and of course they didn't do drugs the whole entire time of working, but then the same thing they would come home and that's like on their mind the whole entire time is they need that high.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure it's probably on their mind all throughout the day too, right? But?
Speaker 4:it's like let's get this done. What would you consider that as?
Speaker 2:I don't know, because it is a hard thing to say. It's like because you're right, they're responsible addict. In a way, it's like they're taking care of their business. However, they still have this thing that they put above everything else. So it's like, yeah, you're functioning, but you're still an addict.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 3:That's a great point too, because even when I was doing all my stuff and being productive and constructive, I was still planning out throughout training my clients. I was thinking, okay, I need to go to this place and meet this person to get this. I was thinking ahead of getting there and you're right, I wasn't totally present. And then there's also the repercussions of the night before or the day before or whatever, being hung over and not functioning at 100% and not being there fully because you're coming off of or just getting some kind of a substance out of your system. And are we truly functioning at 100%? And I don't know. I think it'd be hard to say that it is. I think it's a misconception.
Speaker 4:Because if your mind is, of course, thinking about that, you're given what that's like, 95% of what you're thinking. You're given 5% to your client.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, or to whatever your job is and in some situations it can be dangerous.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure, yeah, like a truck driver, or even a nurse.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I actually just met a nurse recently who was going to rehab, and she's back nursing now, but she was saying that she used to give her patients morphine or whatever the injection she would give, and she would always leave a little bit so she can go and take it for herself. Wow, yeah. The cool thing that I thought about that, though, is that she was really honest with the hospital she worked with, and they actually helped her find help that's awesome and kept her employed, so I thought that that was pretty cool. When I feel like that's a lot of things that jobs are offering now I know where we work is kind of the same thing. If one of my truck drivers came to me and said they had an addiction, I couldn't fire them. We would have to find them help, so I do think that's something that's kind of pretty cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's great, I mean it's just. I mean it's going to compound. If you just cast that person aside, they're not going to get better, they're not going to find another job or they're going to put somebody else at risk. And at least this way you guys are addressing I think I was talking about this earlier on a podcast I think admitting is the first step to growing. It's not shame, it's not weakness, it's the first step that you're taking towards personal growth. And admitting and coming to your employer I mean I should have come to my employer a couple times, but yeah, I think it's a very huge step and it's a very courageous step to that.
Speaker 2:And it's a big part of healing as well as growing, because usually I feel like if you have an addiction, it's actually just a bandaid for something bigger that's going on in your life and usually is something that you're trying to either not feel or not think about, like cover up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, and that's just my personal opinion. Now, once again, I probably, like I said, I probably do have an addiction somewhere and I just don't know what it is yet. But I feel like this look, not that I want to have an addiction, I'm not saying that. But you know, I'm always looking for my next stage in healing. So I kind of been in my healing process and I'm going to say it's been a little over two years now that I kind of realized that I need to focus on loving myself completely and I've been on that journey. But it's always these questions like what am I missing? Or am I missing anything?
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is a great thing, right, I mean, excuse me, to hold ourselves to a higher standard and to constantly look inward and to not like look in the mirror and be like you're a piece of crap, you're doing a horrible job. Yeah, just to hold ourselves accountable and be real with ourselves, because addicts are delusional. We are absolutely out to lunch delusional. We think we've got it all figured out. We think we're hiding it perfectly. We think that we're functioning perfectly.
Speaker 3:We are so delusional in the whole way that we're doing life and lying to ourselves and everybody else around us, of course, but lying to ourselves and saying I can quit whatever I want, I just like doing this a lot, like every day. I just like coming home and getting messed up every day. It's a very delusional place to live. So, yeah, being very introspective and aware and checking in with yourself, I think it's a very healthy thing to do, but in a positive, you're doing a good job kind of way, not like I said, sometimes you need to be tough on yourself, but I think we also get too tough on ourselves at times and we need to lead with grace with other people and starting with ourselves, definitely.
Speaker 2:Definitely. That's a big thing. I have an issue with guilt and it's because I feel guilty that other people aren't in the place that I am. Look, maybe that's my addiction, right, I feel like, okay, you find out that you can have peace on this earth. I figured that out. I had a moment where I was at peace and it was like this is nice, I want to live here for a little bit, and then the phone rings and everybody else's world is in turmoil. I feel bad that my life is in a state of peace and the world around me is like burning.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's true, I totally understand and sympathize with what you're saying, because we're so interconnected with technology these days and we see what's happening around the world and we see all these horrible conditions that people are living in, whether they're in our community, whether they're halfway across the world. We are so lucky to be in the positions that we are. Yeah, it is a very guilty thing to feel sometimes. It definitely is To walk outside and not be in a war-torn country. It's a huge blessing that a lot of people don't have or freshwater or those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:I think we have to keep in, we have to moderate that with what we can actually do and how much we can browbeat ourselves and really take that on because we can help, we can give to charities, we can do that kind of stuff. But we have to moderate, Just like taking in the good news and the bad news. We have to moderate and keep ourselves in a pleasant, comfortable place with all that. You're right, it's easy to look and see people and see things and be like what am I complaining about, man? I've got so many things to be thinking, man. That's a very good point.
Speaker 2:Now I'm getting back to addiction. Do you think that most people know they're addicted to something?
Speaker 3:I think what Crystal said. I think there's a lot of denial with regard to that. That's just so pretty slow because, again, I think addiction is very individual thing and we all deal with it and have different experiences with it and stuff. For years I didn't know that I was addicted and then for years I knew that I was addicted. A lot more years I spent knowing that I was and not how to get away from it. It's just a hard thing to say. It's the routines of going home and eating a sleeve of Oreos or going out for six or seven drinks on Fridays or whatever. It's really so individual. I think.
Speaker 3:In looking up, in preparation for this, trying to find stuff on statistics or things on people and their individual addictive habits, it's pretty much impossible because we're all addicted and you can't lump them in. I can tell you how many percent of people are addicted and I found a lot of interesting stuff about that, like percent of Americans and what we spend on it, that kind of stuff. The individual thing is really that, I think, addicts. We all have our different things and you're right, for the most part, 99.9% of it is band-aids. It's avoiding our feelings, it's hiding from something, it's covering up something I think. Addicts all function in different ways. A lot of addicts will just be as addicted as they are financially allowed, or as much as they can with their time, or as much as they can get away with.
Speaker 2:That's the big one right there.
Speaker 3:as much as they can get away with, yeah exactly Having to sober up for work, like Crystal was saying okay, I'm going to go home, I'm going to get wrecked, do this all night, get up, go to work, keep it together, quote unquote.
Speaker 4:While I'm thinking about that, Some people that's the only way they can function. I know that my ex his choice is heroin and he had. He went into rehabs, got out. I think it's more of if you want to the help, then you'll get the help. But he got out and he wrote a letter one time and he said that he couldn't get through the day, he couldn't do homework or anything without getting high, because I felt just normal to him I'd be high, so he couldn't function if he wasn't high.
Speaker 2:I know, I kind of feel like that's an excuse a little bit, but it's hard to say. It's really hard to say because I was going to bring up the fact that I so like I know someone who's also struggling with the heroin addiction right now and they are so ashamed about it and it's like, if you feel that bad about it, why do you continue to?
Speaker 4:do it. I think it's just it actually steals who you are. You're just not even the person that you used to be once you started doing it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's your new level of like functioning or normal, like you said. I mean, like you said Crystal, like for him to not feel normal, that is his new normal. I mean, that's, that's it. And I remember I went out I said on the podcast before I smoked just way too much weed and I was. I was to the point where I was so embarrassed that I'd go to different dealers to buy because I was embarrassed with how much that I was actually smoking. And they don't care, they're getting paid either way, all right They've added you into somebody else.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in my mind I'm like it's embarrassing, because I just bought an ounce off this person and like, three days later I'm like it's gone. So I got to go back to this other person and, you know, like it it was that embarrassment of, but I also just didn't have the strength and the fortitude to finally, you know, get to it and say, yeah, I'm feeling all these feelings and I'm ashamed and embarrassed but I can't kick it. And then, until I finally, until I finally could and that comes with, you know, rock bottoms and dozens of rock bottoms, and a lot of us addicts talk about, like the rock bottoms that we see on our journey are not necessarily anywhere near as bad, or they're worse, sorry, than the actual rock bottom that gets us to stop. You know, we'll hit way lower bottoms and climb back out and then to finally just it could just be.
Speaker 3:You know, whatever it is that finally is the straw that broke the camels back. But along the way it's, you know, I flushed so many drugs. I, you know, dumped down like alcohol down the sink. You know I did so many things where I was like enough is enough, and then I just come back and come back, and come back, and now, what was it for you that made you realize that, hey, I need to stop, or I need to get this under control?
Speaker 3:Well, looking at like the fact that I've been doing it for 15 years and my life I was 35 at the time and I was like this is not the life that I'm meant to be living. I'm not. I'm not living the best life and I'm not. I'm not thriving, I'm barely surviving Forget thriving. You know I'm making great money, but I've got, you know, I've got the electric company calling to shut my power off, but I've got all the drugs that I need taken care of. And I'm like you know, I'm in the highest tax bracket in Canada but I'm barely putting food on the table. But I've got time for that. And it was like I'm just I'm just not supposed to be doing this and I need to rip these band-aids off and I need to, you know, see, like heal these wounds and as much as I can. Some of them will never be closed and some of them never. But I need to like address them and not stop just putting band-aids on them and just dealing with the infection. I just needed to finally realize that this is not what I'm supposed to be doing and what I'm supposed to be in it got.
Speaker 3:I always say I got a lot harder before it got better because a lot of those band-aids are, you know, nicely compartmentalized traumas that we've been through and stuff that we don't want to deal with and it all comes flooding out, like it all comes rushing at you and now you don't have a substance to dull or to just get rid of it. So it's really like feeling your feelings Like Crystal was saying about her acts and stuff, like it's. It's feeling the normal, the ups and downs of everyday life, which I love now, but at first was super heart man. Like when you feel down, when you're not on drugs, you feel really down, but when you feel up, you feel really up and you're like, oh, this is, this is what life is like. And now I love the ebbs and flows, as opposed to just living in that gray, banded, like you know, middle area where whatever is cool or all that sucked, whatever, everything's just kind of in there.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, Well, I don't. I don't want no downs, so you can go ahead and keep them and you can keep enjoying the ups and downs. I'm gonna send you some of mine, since you like it so much.
Speaker 3:All right, if only, if only.
Speaker 2:No, I'm just sure I kind of honestly that's just what living is right. It's like it is big up and down. It's like we're never, we're never going to have perfect days. It's kind of the world we live in, you know, it's like our world is so I like to say it's corrupted, but maybe that's going a little too far. But I do like I would not bring a child into this world that we live in today. That is something I won't do. My family is like, oh, you'd be a great father. And I'm like, yeah, but the world is fucked up. So there's nothing that I feel like I could do that's gonna stop this child's life from being fucked up, right? So no, no kids for me and part of that is because of those crazy ups and downs in life is like whoo.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree, I agree, I have the same thoughts too. I always wanted to be a father and I'm getting a little bit older now and you know if but I do think that and I look at the world and I always I try and look at the positive and negative. I think it's the craziest time to be alive, but it's also the most wonderful time to be alive. Like I try and really like keep that mind where that balance. But yeah, I mean I don't, I mean it's hard enough raising a dog in this society, I mean, but yeah, like I totally feel you, man, I totally feel you and you know from what we were, you know, raised in and seeing the world changing and everybody adapting to this all at the same time and having to parent in this, and then you know things, it's, it's, it is pretty scary, but I don't know. I think it's important to focus on the positive and the negative and just being aware of both of them. You know the awareness and aware.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's kind of like what we talked about with regards to, you know, people who are starving around the world and can't get fresh water and stuff like that, like you know, we're aware and and you know empathize, and you know, try and do what we can, but we have to also, you know, wake up and head out and go to our jobs and live our lives, and you know, do these things so right right, right, we we the best person that we can be to everybody.
Speaker 2:I think that's my main goal in life. I just want to be the best that I can be, to myself first and then to everybody else, and hopefully, every day you'll be better than the day before. And I deal with a lot of adversity. I was kind of just read diagnosed with cancer so, and I'm kind of in chemo and I've been counting down I'm like 54 days left, but it hit me really, really hard. That was part of the reason why I had to unplug, because as I went through this huge battle and cool, you, you, you, you beat it. You know I got the ring the bell and do my victory lap, and all the hospital people like I hope I never see you again, and which is kind of rude, right, but you know it's like you go through all that.
Speaker 2:And then on Valentine's Day it would have been my fourth year in remission and in December I was read diagnosed and it was like what the fuck? Okay, like God, we need to talk a little bit because I don't understand your plan, right, but it kind of made me question everything, like even if there is a God, and I kind of had that struggle anyway. But it just goes back to kind of living in those ups and downs of life and trying to find your way through them, and I guess it would be a lot easier if I didn't have anything to numb it. Right, you know? So I guess I it's like I never realized until you were talking about, you know, kind of just living in that gray area of life because you were always in that numb stage that you really didn't feel the highs or the lows, you just felt numb. And it's like wow, once you're done with that, I can almost imagine the Mack truck of emotions that hits you when you don't have those band-aids on top of band-aids.
Speaker 3:Big time, Big time it's it's. Reality comes, like present day reality comes and hits you and then it's all of the past stuff that you've been running away from, and all the past stuff that you've just been like talking away, that comes. But that's, you know, that's really where the growth starts and that's really where you know we, we start to heal and and have to push through and get through that stuff. But it's definitely not easy, but it's, it's so worth it, so so worth it. It's, it's everything.
Speaker 4:I think that's a lot of reasons. Why people end up relapsing is because once they get to that point where they have to dig a little bit, then they're like hmm, and they pull back and then they want to feel, or not feel, that pain of the issue.
Speaker 2:Right yes or or issues.
Speaker 4:Issues.
Speaker 2:yes, Because that's usually what it is, Usually like a multitude of things and just feeling different. You know, it's like this world makes it hard to be different, it makes it hard to think different, it makes it hard to stand outside of the box. They tell you you should do all these things, but then when you do it, they make fun of you, you know. So it's like really, really hard, but you know, of course now we're going back to to trauma is expensive and you know, addiction addiction, I actually believe, is caused by trauma, but I wanted to talk about some of the cost of it. Now, Like you know, it's like I think that's the part that people forget all of the things they're losing because of addiction family life, love, real support, money, energy, time, your health.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all that stuff self-respect, the respect of others you know those are big things that I lost in those years and I had to. I was able to rebuild it with some people and some people will always know me as that person and that's okay. I've learned to realize that that's okay. We go through phases and stages in our life where we are our people and you know we're into you know punk rock, music and we you know I use a skateboard, whatever like different phases like that, but also dark phases, and you know you burn a lot of bridges. You act a certain way and you know I was talking about because I pride myself on being somebody who's very reliable and if I say I'm going to do something for you and I, you know I'm there. But I became very unreliable and I lost a lot of people who you know they could hang their hat on. Jonathan said he's going to do X and you know I lost that. But yeah, the time, the money I mean I, for the longest time I beat myself up because of literally the hundreds of thousands of dollars that I've spent and the years that I've spent, you know wasted and I was wasted and I wasted the time and it's just like I would just think of, like man. I wish I could have that money back. But I would talk to a friend of mine's father once and we were talking about that and he said look, if you put it this way, think about going to university for four years, right, and you pay for school, you go into debt, whatever it is. You come out of it with an education and you spend a bunch of money. And I look at it that way is I've come out of it with a lot of life lessons and I've spent a lot of money and time and I can't go back and get that money. If you know how to, let me know. I can't and I wouldn't be the person that I am today without that, without that, and those lessons have made me who I am. Those hardships and those lessons and those lost friendships and all that it's made me who I am. And yeah, that's the way I look at it now.
Speaker 3:But it is extremely expensive in so many ways. It taxes you financially, spiritually, emotionally. People will be like man. You just don't see them yourself Like, yeah, I'm good, I'm fine, because I was just numb. I was just comfortably numb. I just wanted to live in that numb place. I'm like, yeah, it's good, and that just became my new personality. People just kind of expected it. And then when I got sober, it was like, oh, okay, you're back, or this is a new version of you. There still is that light in there, there still is that person in there. And I was like, oh shit, yeah, I guess I just got used to myself being like that too. So, yeah, there's a huge expense of that and a huge toll that it takes.
Speaker 2:And that's kind of deep, though you just got to the point where that's what you expected from yourself too. It was like wow. But to me I think it has to be really hard when a person now looks at you a certain kind of way because of your past and that's always how they're going to see you. I see it now all the time in my family with people who have sobered up, and it takes one person to see somebody. He looks like he's two steps away from another needle and you're like damn, can he just be sober in peace please?
Speaker 4:Like, encourage him to get better.
Speaker 2:And my thing, I feel like, if we're family, it's important for me to kind of check in. Anyway, if I know that, hey, you're my family, you're someone that I am supposed to love and you're sober now, I should take it upon myself every now and then to ask how are you doing? Do you need anything? You know? Is there anything I can help you with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one thing we don't have in this world. We don't have like people don't support each other. You know, they rather show the video of you, drunk, throwing up in the toilet versus of you hounding out water.
Speaker 3:Holding your hair? Yeah, because you get more views with the drunk, you know, falling in the toilet. You know that's our society. But no, you're right, and I try and treat people as who they are in front of me and knowing with my past and what I've come through. And the people who still look at me that way, they either aren't a part of my life or, if they can't get over that and see what the work that I've done and who I am today, then okay, that's fine, Like what people think of me as none of my business, like they can go ahead with that.
Speaker 3:But the people that look at me for who I am today and what you know, how hard I've worked and what I'm doing and how I'm trying to be a better person, like we said, for myself, first for those around me and then for society, and they can look at that and they can, you know, support and encourage that.
Speaker 3:Like you said, with family members, it's like man, instead of, like you know, snickering about how he's about to, you know, go tie off in the bathroom. How about? Like giving him a hey, it's great to see you're doing well Like, you know, one of those, instead it's it's uh, I think we have to push those out and but a lot of times addicts too are looking for that validation you know we're looking for and I spent a lot of time trying to read, like, trying to like redo or undo the things that I've done and, like I said, some were I was able to and people stuck with me and stuck along for the journey. Some people didn't, and that's okay, it's. You know, I've known a lot of people different times their life and they're probably not the same person now and that's just the way it is.
Speaker 2:It's one thing I actually just recently learned, and it was this lesson that I kind of did the same thing I felt like in my life I have done wrong to a lot of people. It's just kind of the way the world works. I was mean when I shouldn't have been mean. I was nasty when I shouldn't have been nasty. I turned my back when I shouldn't turn my back. But you know it lately in realizing and growing is that one thing I can say is that I was always the best version of who I was at that moment. So if I turned my back on you, you were getting my best, because that was the best that I can give you. You know it's different now because I grow up. So I know now to handle a situation and not to be able to turn my back on you or not be able to curse you out and call you a sloppy bitch or you know, I tell you, you know it's pretty funny.
Speaker 2:I was on an interview with somebody. We were interviewing someone yesterday it's not funny but it's funny and her son was diagnosed with some mental health disorders and she took it hard as a parent and she kind of went into this situation where, like she was bedridden for like a month and it's like bitch if you don't get out here and feed your kid you know what I'm saying like come take care of your child. He hungry, he dirty, look at his ears, behind his ears, like what's wrong with you, right? And then my guest yesterday she kind of corrected me and she was said they're okay to go through that, like they're okay to mourn, like it's okay for them to have that time.
Speaker 2:And I never thought about it that way. Like you know, I guess you do kind of need that check out. Well, I don't know, I don't have no kids. I feel like you shouldn't check out from your kids. But like don't just leave him. He's five years old or feeding for himself, okay, um, but once again, I'm not a parent, I can't say that. But I did feel like she kind of smacked me a little bit and opened my eyes to the fact that people handle things differently and you have to let people go through their process. You know, but it's a process and I think that we get stuck in going through the process when you know processes are completed, and I think that's the part we miss. You know, go through the process, complete the process and let's move on to the next stage. Like, stop processing the same thing for 86 years. Okay, I get that you're processing. That should be done already. You need to upgrade, trade the brain in, get the iPhone. No, I'm not going to advertise for iPhone at all. No, I get the iPhone.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, that was true, it's, uh, it's, it's true. And I remember I went on a cruise once with my siblings and and, uh, my sister and her younger, uh, my nephews, and stuff like that, and I was like 21 at the time. It was a Disney cruise and I just wanted to be around family but I wanted to drink, cause I was 21. So I would just, you know, the kids would be doing whatever and having fun, and then you'd see the moms and dads who would sneak away from their families to, you know, take a couple of shots or drink a couple of beers to then be able to go back to.
Speaker 3:And you know, I again, we're not parents, crystal's parent, but we, you know, you and I are parents and we don't know how hard that is. But I think there's a lot going on behind the scenes where people are just trying to keep it together, like they are really trying to like and whether it's, you know, talk to kids in at night and, and, you know, sit down with a Scotch, or you know, light up or whatever it is Like. I think there's there's a lot of that um going on and, yeah, I totally sympathize with it because I know that it can be that hard, and I couldn't imagine having to keep children alive. And then you know, but it's oh me as hell you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly Like all right, hit record. This is a new episode.
Speaker 2:I still take over. Oh, if you wasn't such a numbing show.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's. I think you're right. I mean, there is that, uh, there is that grief that you're allowed to have and I think I was talking about. You know, everything has a. There's a lesson behind everything, you know. You guys know this more than anybody, and we see the world, uh, similar ways, that way, and no matter how hard it is, you know, we need to take time and feel those feelings. But to look back and look at that experience and be like what am I taking from this? What, going forward? Am I taking from this? Either to, you know, a not make the same mistake, be not be fooled by the same kind of people, whatever it is you know, and or things that are, you know, we don't bring upon ourselves like you know you're, you're, we're struggling with cancer and or losing a loved one, or something like that. You know it's really important to take that time and spend that time and and to feel those things, and then you know okay, what's, what's the plan?
Speaker 2:Right, and I think grace is it's kind of a word you used earlier, but to me that's a really strong word. It's like we need to give ourselves grace and the people around us grace, and because, look, there's no way to survive without it. You know, it's like I don't think we're meant to be put on this earth to be miserable. No, no, you know, once I learned what peace was, I was like what?
Speaker 4:I'm like there's no way.
Speaker 2:But Crystal says that about work, she's like there's no way that I should be spending my time at work, right, no, have to get to work, okay that was good.
Speaker 4:So my brother, he was an addict and unfortunately he ended up mixing two different types of pills, what caused him to go in a coma. He used to say all the time because you could tell when he was high he act different. And he just didn't act like a self. But he went through the whole like I can quit anytime, I'm not addicted to it, I'm just doing it because it feels good. And now I don't want to say like we're picking up the pieces, but now we go and visit him and he's like lays there and he don't move or anything. So I think that everybody goes through that thought of.
Speaker 4:I got it under control until it's too late.
Speaker 3:Right, it's the delusion, it's all. It all stems from the delusion of the addict, the addict's delusion of, and it yeah, unfortunately it gets to awful places where you know with what your family's dealing with and with your brother or you know people losing their lives and stuff, and you know we will tell ourselves and trick ourselves and convince ourselves that we've got this right. As we are just crashing towards the ground, man, like, we see the ground rushing at us and we're like, nah, I can pull the shoot anytime, I can pull the pair, I'll be fine, I can do it anytime. And yeah, unfortunately a lot of people don't don't, and it's, it's extremely sad, but it's. I think it all stems from that delusion and and that that sickness, it's a disease. You know it's a, it really is.
Speaker 2:And I feel like that's one of the biggest costs of an addiction. Now, the people that become consequences.
Speaker 4:You know we become a consequence to your bad decision, right, and now we have to figure out a way to do with this, and it's like you don't know what it's costing me to be your brother or your sister, I mean as like that, him choose, not choosing but him doing pills cost him not seeing his kids for the last eight years, not being able to talk or see his family, or how many birthdays he's lost and Christmases and holidays just for something that I mean we did try to get him through help and he just chose. I can stop it at any time.
Speaker 3:You also think about too, like everything that your family's endured as well, like your extended family, like you're, I mean what you guys have had to deal with and how much time, effort, and you know emotion and everything you've put towards him and and what he's dealing with and how that has that. You know that. That. You know just the effect, that just ripple effect that that goes out from there and it's it's not singularly the addict, it's those that are closest to us and we hurt them the most. You know the most and you know, like, like you know you're saying Christ, like all these things that he's missed out on and not been able to do, and you know the, the agony that comes from the family because of that. It's, it's you know and you know, I, I did that for a long time and it really is. You know again, it's. Why would we want to hurt? Okay, we can hurt ourselves, fine, but why would we want to hurt those around us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't think that people go into these things thinking about that.
Speaker 4:No, of course not.
Speaker 2:I think that maybe we should start like maybe this should be like a pattern, Maybe this is needs to be our new addiction of calculating. You know, the pros and the cons of this, this decision I'm going to make you know, or this thing that I'm going to do, or this thing that I'm going to try.
Speaker 4:Well, I think that addicts know what it could cost them. Like I used to watch what my ex um, that, uh, that TV series where they go intervention, intervention, every single night. It was on and we split up. A couple of years later he's addicted to heroin. We watched that every night. You've seen what the people were going through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you do, you kind of go through that. I'll never get that bad phase. That's what I like I can control it. I'm different than they are. I'll never let it get that bad. Speaking of intervention Okay, I'm about to sound real judgment too, but did y'all see the episode of the chick that was like addicted to the can air?
Speaker 3:spray, exactly.
Speaker 2:And I'm like that's exactly what I said.
Speaker 4:And they said what is addicted to toilet paper? Yeah, he has to eat toilet paper. Eat it. Yeah, oh really, oh no.
Speaker 3:I saw that on my strange addiction. Wow yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, so she had pica um when she was like two and she would constantly eat the toilet paper. And I asked the doctors. Doctors said it was fine, but she don't have it no more. But she still has the urge to eat it, right.
Speaker 2:Cause it's a habit now. It's a habit now, yeah.
Speaker 4:It became her walk and pass the bathroom. She goes in and grabs a piece of toilet paper and I'm like what's in your mouth?
Speaker 2:What are you doing on? I'm like it's my favorite gum Right, the worst gum ever.
Speaker 4:But it's all these toilet paper and not like paper towels are not the only toilet paper Scots.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's possible.
Speaker 3:I think, like you said, mike, it's really important to to really take stock of that and to think about how things affect other people. Is is a really big thing, like the same reason why you know we don't get frustrated on an escalator and kick people down the escalators. You know we don't start just. You know we we hold back those intrusive thoughts, or you know we act accordingly, like you know we should in society.
Speaker 2:Now, Jonathan, did you want to kick somebody down the escalator?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm looking at Manhattan, man, you know how it is in Manhattan. You just you've got to. You know it's.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you a funny story. So they like remodel LaGuardia and I was flying. I flew into LaGuardia on a Sunday and they remodeled it and I flew with Delta and Delta has its own terminal. They have this escalator that has to be one of the longest. It is the scariest. I'm scared of heights anyway. Right, so you would want to kick my ass, because not only was I just standing there and not walking down like the other people, I'm gripping both sides, I'm on the auto and so you can't even get past me, excuse me, and I'm like I can't move. I can't wait. You got to wait till the bottom. It was like an hour long. I'm like what the fuck? Who invented this escalator? Like what is wrong with you people? So at first, I want to kick them down their own escalator.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we never thought that up. I just think it's important that we you know, the same way that we you know practice great, you know, I don't get road rage anymore because somebody cuts me off or something happens. I'm thankful that nothing you know knock on wood. Anything too bad happened and maybe that person's having a bad day, or maybe they're just not a good driver. Maybe they're really good at, you know, doing taxes or managing money or something.
Speaker 4:I think it's so rude when somebody like drives and then cuts you off.
Speaker 2:It is so. You have road rage.
Speaker 4:It's really that important.
Speaker 2:So you have road rage, because though?
Speaker 4:I mean I don't say anything, but I'm like that's rude. Like my daughter just started learning how to drive. I know it's off topic, but she just started learning how to drive and I don't know how many people go past her and I'm like she just started learning.
Speaker 2:So get some student driver stickers and put them on your car because you can realize. It's kind of like John said you don't know what's going on in that car, people don't know that she just started learning how to drive, so you have to tell them. You know. You know I always say I go into like this conversation about, like, non-binary people, you know I'm in my 40s or whatever, so it's always been him, her you know, she, he.
Speaker 2:If you go by something different than that, tell me. Now. I know you don't have to be offended right away. It doesn't have to be a fight because I assumed. I assumed because this is what I was taught by old life, because this is how I grew up. I wasn't born in the 2000s, see, I'm from the 1900s, and in the 1900s, you know you was retarded, you know. So now, if we can't say that word, no more like, explain to me why, like I feel like I should get that one get out of jail free card that allows me to be ignorant when I'm really ignorant.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or you just don't. Yeah, or you just don't. We need to be explained so we can understand.
Speaker 2:Right, and it's not even that I have to understand. I just want you know. It's like if it matters to you, it matters to me whether I understand or not. But just tell me. Just tell me, no, I go by this, or I don't like that, or you know, what you said is offensive. Like you know, we. I feel like we go from zero to 60 real quick and then we're kicking people down the escalator.
Speaker 3:Jonathan, Allegedly I've allowed it to anything.
Speaker 2:I plead the fact that it wasn't that you did. It is that you wanted to do it.
Speaker 3:Man, it takes people down escalators Like what You're so ahead.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it'll be an article that I write these fucking feelings exclusive, exactly.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 4:No it is.
Speaker 2:I did, I did want to, kind of, and I said I'm actually looking at the time now and I said we know his voice hurts, but we still going to keep them a whole hour. I do want to ask you this question, right, because you someone asked me the other day if I could change what I went through. Would I and you were talking about kind of, what you went through made you who you are Now? Before I give you my answer, I want to know your answer.
Speaker 3:Sure, I've been asked this before and people ask me like, because my story starts the day before my 21st birthday, for the most part, when my mom passed away very suddenly and expected me to be. And then, you know, cut to 20 years later, here I am. They always ask me what would you say? Not always, but I've been asked what would you say to your 21 year old self? And I would simply say Up, look, it's going to be hard, it's going to be very hard, it's going to last for a very long time, but you are going to get through it. And I wouldn't say don't do this, I wouldn't say don't do that, so I wouldn't say don't go. I would say just know that you are going to get through it.
Speaker 3:Because that was the most bleak and the hardest part for me was thinking that I'm never going to be okay, I'm never going to be normal. And, as the years went on, just thinking like I'm resigned to who I am now. This is who I am and I'm going to be, but I wouldn't change it for the world because, like you said, it's maybe who I am. And I would just say look, man, it's going to be hard, just don't give up. You're going to make mistakes, you're going to do a lot of great things. Just keep battling, but just know that you're going to get through it and you're going to get to a place where you can be proud and you can keep learning, keep growing and be in a good place. So that's what I would say.
Speaker 2:Okay, how about you, crystal?
Speaker 4:I say the same as he does, as your past made you who you are, and if you don't like it, you can only change it forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, my answer was completely different and I'm going to say if I can go back and change all that shit, I'm with it. I'm changing everything. Yeah, mama, look, it's like mama. I'm sorry that you may not be my mama again. Trust, I love you, but when I tell you my life has been that hard, I don't care how much it made me. I'm going to change that shit, okay.
Speaker 4:It could be like a miserable like old man, it's right.
Speaker 2:It's like. It's like you have these. You have these things to consider. Right, it's like you can go back and your life could be worse. Yeah, I'm willing to take that chance.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's the butterfly effect, right, like if we change one thing, then how much of it? Like if we change one decision, like one regret we had back, then how much of an effect does that have going forward? And it's like I don't know. Like I mean, like I think Chris and I are on the same page where it's like, hey, let's not rock the boat. Okay, we got to where we are, like we've, you know, ups and downs, mistakes, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean I go back and you're still in a boat and I'm stuck with the Titanic. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So I don't know you from way back, but I know you now and like you're so perfect.
Speaker 2:Oh, you know what we're going to end on that, yeah.
Speaker 3:We're going to end on y'all here. I'm so good about it. We finally got to it. Man, I took an hour of just blabbing around. Finally, the moral of the story.
Speaker 4:Mike is perfect.
Speaker 2:It's a look. We invited Jonathan on to have a Jonathan takeover, for me to find out that I'm perfect.
Speaker 3:Well, you mean perfect?
Speaker 2:I do, actually, I do think that I'm perfect, but, jonathan, I think that you're perfect too, because who can you compare yourself to?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're perfectly imperfect. We're our best version of ourselves. Like you said and you said that very pointedly as well Like, just know that if I was that way to you, I was doing the best one that I had at the time and being the best version of what I had to work with. And yeah, I mean it's, we're just doing the best. And I think we have to stay in our lanes because all of this comparison, all this social media stuff and all this you know this person's this old, why do they have this car? All that stuff is like. You know, forget about it. They, those those people, be the best version of yourself and the house.
Speaker 2:You just say what you'll six pack. No, I'm just joking, trust. I'm look, I'm fine, all my little fat. I've been skinny my whole life, right? I started to gain weight. I'm like, okay, I got a ass. Now. Look, I went to the doctor the other day and she saw my lost weight and I was like, oh, I'm about to go to McDonald's.
Speaker 3:Let's go, baby.
Speaker 2:Fruit rollups. We know, jonathan. We thank you so much as always for coming on. I feel like we're going to see a lot more of you. I heard a rumor that you about to start your own podcast. I am definitely thinking there's something that you should do, so make sure you keep us posted on that. But I did want you to close with some words of wisdom, because this is the Jonathan take over. So go ahead and tell our trauma is expensive audience Something powerful.
Speaker 3:I would just echo what I just said and that's been one of the biggest things that I've had to learn in life, and especially in modeling as well is stop the comparison, stop, you know. Really strike. Really. Shut out the you know. Use social media as a tool and as a great motivator or whatever it is, but make sure that you're cognizant and aware of what the negative consequences of it are as well and just focus on being the best person for that person in the mirror that you can be and then push that out and just really let's practice grace with ourselves.
Speaker 3:And you know, just the same way that we'll go hold the door open for somebody, and why don't we practice that same grace ourselves when we turn around and look at the mirror and say, man, you're a piece of shit. Let's, let's skip that and let's just be the best version of ourselves and focus on that and be able to lend a helping hand to others, to strangers, and just to know that we're all going through it. Everybody's going through something, everybody's dealt with something. We all have a story. Just, let's, just all really come together and it sounds corny, but let's make the world a better place. Let's just have these conversations and let's let's make the world a better place.
Speaker 2:And definitely and I'm just going to add on because I'm just learning that it's okay to have your bad days, your mornings, your, your time. You just don't want to deal with nobody. It's okay to take those moments yourself, to reset, to get re what they call it, your equilibrium. Let's go ahead and get it all together and we're going to continue to count the costs and make the change. I am a Micah. Thanks for crystal, thanks to crystal, she's been filling in for Rebecca and who is on the low hiatus. So thanks crystal, rebecca. We love you, girl, john, and thanks for coming on and I'm pretty sure we will talk to you soon. Until next week's, guys, we'll see you. Peace, love and blessings.
Speaker 1:And that brings us to the end of yet another insightful episode of trauma is expensive. I'm signing off on behalf of your host, micah Bravery, reminding all you brave souls to continue counting the cost and making the change. Don't forget to visit wwwtraumaisexpensivecom, a dynamic space for understanding, healing and transformation, where we fuel the journey to turn pain into progress. Until we meet again, stay resilient, stay empowered and remember the mantra Count the cost and make the change. Thank you for being part of the conversation. We bid you farewell. Until next time.